I felt it right a proper, and that my analysis of Steve and Mandy’s relationship, wouldn’t be complete, until I had written and said something about his summarisation of my article in his email response, following my article, and because my realisations and conclusions about this, make my overall article analysis much more complete, and put a finishing touch to my main analysis and article. Also, Steve and Mandy, now have a thorough analysis of their relationship, in terms of communication and sexuality, and they now more or less have all the solutions to their problems.
Whilst most of the verbal and emotional domination, sadism, and humiliation, by Mandy towards Steve, which he likes and enjoys - but which also leads to some verbal, mental, and emotional abuse by her against him, which he hates and dislikes - is predominantly by Mandy against Steve, Steve admits here in his email response, that he both allows it, and participates in it, meaning that he sometimes does this back to her too.
By ‘participate’, it seems as if he means that he participates masochistically, with the female sadistic role play, which he often does, again, because he likes and enjoys it, but what he actually means, is that he is admitting that sometimes - as part of his protest and repulsion against the abuse aspects of Mandy’s verbal, mental, and emotional sadism and humiliation - that he sometimes ‘participates with it’, in a sense, that he sometimes does this back to her verbally, mentally, and emotionally, both sadistically and abusively, as revenge for her corresponding verbal, mental, and emotional abuse by Mandy towards him. Steve also admits here, that when he sometimes does this verbal, mental, and emotional abuse against Mandy, like Mandy, he also becomes less sexually inviting, and more accusatory and suggestive.
Many psychotherapists, would describe this verbal, mental, and emotional abuse - mostly by Mandy against Steve, but also by him against her - as a "defence", which prevents them both from being more mutually inviting, compromising, and more balanced sexually in bed with each other.
Steve didn’t reveal this somewhat mutual verbal, mental, and emotional abuse, between him and Mandy, to me in his main conversation with me, in the article, and he has never mentioned the reality of it all since, but I know from what Mandy has told me in the chat room in the past, and from what he says here and elsewhere in code and subtext, that he does sometimes do this to her too.
Along with the sexual matters, this is something that Steve needs to be honest and come clean about, and he has to admit to me and others, that he also sometimes does this, because in some ways (contrary to the view that masochist men idealise women), he is presenting to myself and others, an idealised view of him as man, and a somewhat cynical and stereotyped and distorted view of Mandy as a woman.
Steve then admits, that he 'over dominates’ when he encounters the abuse by Mandy against him, but he says that this is ‘in a verbal sense’, revealing that he is in denial about all the factors surrounding his sexual over domination and sadism towards Mandy in bed - some of which is abusive too - and that he is confessing that he sometimes verbally abuses her as well.
Steve is right to protest about the mistreatment, and the verbal, mental, and emotional abuse by his mother towards him as a child, but this cannot be blamed for his masochism, nor his sadism towards women, as child and adult abuse against a person, does not cause masochism or sadism, although it can intensify or imbalance it.
Peter H. Donnelly
Steve's Email Responses, and Comments, on my article about his Masochism
Your article sounds good to me, but I think I am aware with it. I either choose to ignore it, allow it, participate, or over-dominate when I encounter it. Sometimes I do feel like the game goes too far, and then I become the sadistic predator in a verbal sense. I only achieve a masochistic satisfaction, when the level is appropriate enough to overcome. If I feel threatened, I will change my mindset and become less inviting, and more accusatory and suggestive. I think it all boils down to how my mother treated me. I certainly found one like her: older, bipolar, and emotionally out of tune. The question is whether I feel satisfaction from the derogation and frustration, whether it goes too far, or whether I’m neither in the mood nor up to a challenge. Your article is good stuff, I have to agree.
Article, based upon a very Recent MSN Messenger conversation, with my Internet American Friend, Steve, who is a self-described Heterosexual Masochist
The contents, of my and Steve’s recent Internet conversation, are below, after my written analysis, discoveries, and insights, of what he had said to me in this conversation. Steve has given me permission to write, post, and email this article, to various groups and individuals. I have also changed the names of him and his female partner, and I will be interested to know what his and her thoughts, feelings, and responses are to this article, and other people’s too.
Steve is lying, or unaware, about the verbal and emotional domination and sadism, from his girlfriend, Mandy, which he naturally likes and enjoys, and which is fine, but which he says, also gives him a so-called balance, and a "moral" validation or "reason", for being dominant, controlling, and sadistic towards her in bed. Steve describes her emotional, and verbal, domination and sadism, as providing him with a "moral" point, and a valid "reason" for his sexual sadism towards her, unless Mandy’s verbal, and emotional, dominance, control, and sadism, all over-power his mood and will, and then he says that the so-called balance - involving in his case - his unnatural sexual sadism towards her in bed, is lost.
Steve is actually describing, this "moral" point, and "reason", for his justification, for his sexual dominance, control, and sadism towards Mandy in bed, but which is actually a punishment and a retaliation by him against her, for her force, domination, and control, that over-powers his will, emotionally and mentally. This is because, in some ways, he is trying to cure or "normalise" his sexual masochism, towards women - but this is not the right or fully-effective way of going about it - whilst in other ways, it is an immoral justification - and not a moral one as he describes it. Steve’s domination, control, and sadism, towards Mandy, sexually in bed, is not really his or her true and full sexual nature - and by itself - it will not cure, balance, nor moderate, his sexual masochism towards women.
However, contrary to his view, that the emotional and verbal, dominance, control, and sadism from his girlfriend, Mandy - which he naturally likes and enjoys - and which he says gives him a "moral reason", validation, and a so-called balance, to be dominant, controlling, and sadistic, in bed with her sexually - it is actually the other way round - that his dominance, control, and sadism, sexually in bed with Mandy - validates, and gives him a moral point and reason, for the verbal and emotional domination, control, and sadism, he receives from Mandy, and which he naturally likes and enjoys.
Steve, also says, that he doesn't like the verbal, and emotional, control, and domination from Mandy, if it over-powers his mood and will, because he then says, that he and Mandy gain nothing, because there is no understanding. By understanding, this is also a part of what he really means by a balance, because as a masochist, he also likes and prefers, consensual agreement, and not force without some consensus, although he retaliates with force and control, sexually in bed with her, when she over-powers his mood and will, with excessive verbal, emotional, and intellectual, control and domination.
Steve, also says - somewhat contradictorily - that he likes and enjoys his girlfriend, to dominate, control, accuse, blame, and make him squirm intellectually, because after a while, it makes him think things through, and stimulates his mind - giving him a goal - otherwise he would feel things are trivial, and then he would get bored.
Whilst there is some truth in this, that Steve lets, likes, and enjoys his girlfriend, Mandy, to dominate and control him intellectually - along with her unreasonable blames and accusations towards him - this is again what he means by "understanding" - that he also tries to understand, the nature and reasons, for her excessive force towards him, and which is a good and noble intention. However, Mandy’s intellectual domination, or mind-control, which temporarily controls, and diminishes Steve’s thoughts, is yet another so-called "moral" justification, for him to be dominant, controlling, and sadistic with her in bed, but which is again, actually an immoral justification, and which again, is not really his, or her, true sexual desires, thoughts, feelings, or nature.
Mandy’s intellectual domination, control, and unreasonable accusations, and blames, are both positive and negative for Steve, and serve three purposes. One purpose, is that he likes and enjoys it, and it gives him happiness and pleasure. Secondly, it is a valid justification for genuine understanding, of the reasons, for her excessive domination, control, and especially her excessive force. Thirdly, it is a blatant immoral justification, and a denial and self-betrayal, of his natural sexual masochism towards women.
The solution for Steve, is to continue to enjoy Mandy’s verbal and emotional domination, sadism, and control, which he naturally likes and enjoys, but to assert himself, when his mood and thoughts, are over-powered by her excessive domination, control, and force. Steve must also, not allow himself to be dominated, and controlled by Mandy, to the point where it over-powers his thoughts, feelings, and will, and prevents him from freely, discussing, debating, and negotiating with her, about all these matters, and creating some sort of shared contract, or some sort of free and equal agreement, between the two of them.
Whilst there are other reasons, I have already explained, for his sexual sadism towards Mandy, her intellectual mind-control towards him, is at the root, of his immoral and inauthentic justification, to be dominant, controlling, and sadistic with her, sexually in bed at night.
In order to achieve, the full balance and understanding he refers to, he needs to let his girlfriend, Mandy, be more dominant, controlling, and sadistic in bed with him, as he said that he has never tried this, and because both he and she would enjoy it, and it would also prevent, diminish, or put a stop, to the verbal and emotional domination - to the point where it over-powers his mood, mind, and will - and to the point where she has some mind-control over him, and which temporally, prevents him, from discussing, negotiation, and thinking, with her together, as part of a contract or consensus.
All of this, as a solution, would also, relieve, stop, or diminish, the trivualisation and boredom, Steve refers to, and which is related to, the emotional and intellectual mind-control, the occasional excessive verbal and emotional domination by Mandy, over-powering his will, and his dominance, control, and sadism, in bed with her at night, which is not really something he enjoys, and which is not really a part of his or her true feelings, thoughts, desires, love, or nature.
Steve: I like her to be a bit sadistic with how she talks, but I was always sadistic in bed. I don't know, all I know is we clash and it cant last forever, distance is hard, but 2 bipolar people can hardly work side by side, yet alone at our distance.
Myself: So you were both masochist and sadist? Do you regard yourself as a so-called "switch" then - submissive or dominant - in different situations, with different people?
Steve: All I know, is that I get bored if there's no challenge, but after I beat the challenge, I've got to (be) the sadist. I’m not sure how I'd be described.
Myself: What makes you want to beat the challenge?
Steve: Well, challenges give us goals, and if we have no goal to attain, we can either be at peace, or we can feel somewhat tired, trivialised, and bored. I think if Mandy argues and argues, and I finally get sexual satisfaction, its a fair exchange, but if she tears my head off and we don't talk, I think that's bad in any relationship.
Myself: So it's the force you object to, not the consensual masochist and sadist female agreement?, and that makes you sadistic or dominant?
Steve: I think if the balance is lost, and the mood she imposes, overpowers my will, she can just eat me up, and spit me out, without either of us gaining, but if I can make her see a moral or reason - and if I can gain something in bed - I feel accomplished, but if its just a 1-way beating, I don't care for it. Masochist at day, sadist at night.
Myself: Yes, that makes a lot of sense, and some masochists say and do that. So how are you sadistic to her in bed?, do you mean verbally?, or do you have sexual intercourse with her intensely, and order her to do what you like?
Steve: When I was there, I’d fuck her in the ass, or cum down her throat, and I’d say what to do and when. I think that gave me validation, for all of the verbal nonsense I took during the day, and that translates to webcam on MSN messenger too, but when I just get a verbal onslaught and get nothing, that's when I start thinking things are off-balance.
Myself: Right, so you feel like your getting your own back, on the force from her, like revenge in a way? Maybe out a sense of betrayal?
Steve: In a way, but more of an understanding, instead of forced feelings.
Myself: I see, and so in actual fact, you both become dominants and sadists.
Steve: A mutual exchange, yes, we can both exit at any time, but it became a ritual, but when that slips, then we both lose.
Myself: Has Mandy ever whipped you?
Steve: No, its just verbal, but its beyond the point of normality.
Myself: Does she like to humiliate you, debase you, and watch you grovel and squirm?
Steve: Probably. I think she feels power from screwing me over - a man - when all of her life, she claims the men have done the screwing over on her. I see a balance to it all, and when its off, I think its gone too far, and she went too far a few days ago, and now just like 100 times before, I've heard silence for 2 days. It’s either a grudge, or some silence from her. She said she didn't love me, and wanted to piss on my grave. I can handle being a dick, loser, or an asshole, but some things are sacred.
Myself: When you get sadistic in bed with her, do you think that is your way of recharging your masochism?, and does it afterwards make you more masochistic? Because that’s part of one of my explanations, in one of my new articles on masochism.
Steve: I just think its my way of evening things out, to produce a clean slate for the next day. They have a saying here: "Every boy, wants a gal just like the one that married good old dad". I think that's what I did.
Myself: Are you into being whipped by women at all?
Steve: I’ve never tried it.
Myself: What do you like masochistically?
Steve: Sexually, I'm very limited, and I'm sure there are 12 year-old kids, that know more than I do about sex. I really think its just the emotional aspect. I cant see myself dominated in the bedroom quite yet.
Myself: So do you prefer verbal humiliation to pain?
Steve: I think I get bored, if I'm not made to squirm in an intellectual fashion, and if I don't get accused or blamed, I don't have to do as much thinking, and that's when I get bored. I like to think my way out of the emotional pain. Maybe I'm also looking to carry a burden for a few days, and get the relief after its lifted.
Myself: I see, so the intellectual humiliation and domination, makes you think more when you work through it?
Steve: Yes, more or less. I also think, a factor, is that when I'm medicated by the doctors, then I'm emotionally restricted. I always think I cant experience, the full-scope of emotions, unless put to the test, and when Mandy breaks me down, and I'm needed to build it back up, and it gives me something right.
Myself: So it's like intellectual stimulation, that beats the over-sedation of the psychiatric drug?
Steve: Yes, its either get extreme and jolting emotional conflict, while being sedated by a Dr's drug - and feeling mundane - or I can ride a bipolar roller-coaster, and self-medicate, but neither is very nice, and I don't think I’ll ever find a good balance.
Myself: Well, I think its possible to find and get, a real and good balance.
Steve: I don’t know, because I feel a lot like a sociopath, when I'm medicated by Drs.